How We Got Here - Ep 10

Rachel: Hi everyone. I'm Dr. Rachel Lupien.

Steph: And I’m Dr. Stephanie Spera.

Rachel: Our climate is in crisis and we all want to help, but we might not know how.

Steph: We're talking to people who have figured out how to use their talents to combat climate change and the hopes that their journey might inspire your own.

Rachel: This is how we got here: because the earth needs professional help.

INTRO

Rachel: Hello, Stephanie.

Steph: Hello? So formal today.

Rachel: Hello, welcome to the pod.

Steph: Boy, it's a Wednesday.

Rachel: On Wednesdays. We're formal.

Steph: I got a picture today from my son's daycare said, "on Wednesdays, we wear the same sweat pants." And it was to my son and another child in the same sweat pants from target.

Rachel: That's very funny.

Steph: They did the mean girls thing. And I was like, I don't know who was telling me this and who gets this reference, but I'm here for it. I love it.

Rachel: I know, I know. However, I also just love the little picture of Theo in tiny sweatpants

Steph: He wears sweatpants all the time, because not much else fits his lovely, chunky bum..

Um, let's get into it. Good things, bad things.

Rachel: Wow. It's it's been a while. I've had some good things. I've had some bad things. Mostly good . Mine are kind of related. So I'm going to say them together and then you can go, you go that's the plan. Okay. So, and I tweeted about this, so some people might know that Igot a big NSF grant funded.

Steph: What's it called? What's it called? What's the title.

Rachel: Okay. So, right. So this is called terrestrial organics since the Oligocene. TOTO: The rains down in Africa, that's why it was funded, but the reviews were just like hilarious. No, just kidding. Actually, none of the reviews mentioned the title, very professional of them

Steph: I thought that you were serious. I was like, oh, that'd be amazing. But also congratulations. Cause getting an NSF grant.

Rachel: I mean, just like full disclosure. This took me two years to write. I mean, really, and truly this was not just like, I woke up one day and decided to write this and then it was funded and then we like, it was all locked.

But what I did not tweet about, but I will tell you here is that I had another grant, another NSF proposal that I wrote only a couple months after that. Maybe a week later that one was rejected. Go back just fine. I was like, I was on the high from the first, so I was not super down about it, but it just, I, I had a 100% success rate for like a week and 50% is really good.

I'm not, they're tough, but yeah. Yeah. But anyway, so there's, there's bad tonight, you know? That one. I tried to make that title good. I couldn't even say it because it was too long. I don't remember it. it was called brainstorm because it was like neural networks and rainfall, which I thought was funny.

But then I tried to force an acronym. That's probably why it was declined. Anyway, I loved it.  The second one did take me much less, perhaps that maybe that's the relationship.

Steph: I will say. I have applied for many NSF grant and my rate is 0%.

Rachel: Uh, which is the other thing was that this other one that got rejected had funding for this podcast in it. And that got rejected.

Steph: So I wasn't gonna bring that part.

Rachel: That's okay. So, how are you? I am good.

Yeah. In week four of our semester. I have a paper that us, an undergraduate started got published this week. Two years later submitted in 2019 gonna throw that out there, but it got published and I think it's important.

Um, and it came out of a final project. I'll try and give a really brief synopsis, but basically I was very naive to the fact that structural racism affected cemeteries and perpetual care. I don't know. I'm sure there are only black cemeteries and only white cemeteries in Massachusetts, but it was just a problem because I'm a white lady, never even knew about here.

It's very common here in Virginia. Um, and only recently did the state start giving money for perpetual care to black cemeteries. So we worked in the cemetery called East End Cemetery. Black cemetery, no funding for perpetual care was left up to the descendants to maintain. And it's huge. It's a big cemetery.

It's an, um, volunteer group started to come in and one of my students, we flew a drone over it to help make a map for visitors to the cemetery, but he came up with a way to use GIS, um, to try and just uncover hidden graves, graves that have been buried in overgrowth vegetation. And we use just like a cheap, cheap in quotes, but just like a best buy drone, like a DJI drone.

So arc GIS, and very simple methodology. So we basically were like hoping other friends of cemeteries and volunteer groups can use this method to actually allow the descendants to reclaim these spaces that have been neglected. So we're, I don't know. I'm excited it's out there and it's in an archeology journal and just like really funny and cool.

Um, awesome. That seems very impactful. And to have it led by an undergraduate student is so it was cool.

Steph: It was great. And it like is Richmond and it like opens my eyes to all the ways that I have been naive to so many other things, race racial things. Uh, yeah. So that's cool. And then, yeah, unlike every other episode before this, I'm going to say, I can't think of a bad off the top of my head,

Rachel: so you don't have. The flu, no bronchitis,

Steph: no tonsillitis

Rachel: you didn't get any gross photos,

Steph: We're good. We got to be a great week because of our guests. Can I tell you about them? Yeah, I'm so my gosh, he's the best. Uh, his name is Jordan Rowell and he was what I would call a Jack of all trades. He's currently a non traditional undergraduate listeners, I put ,nontraditional in quotes cause he's 26 and he's at the university of Vermont where he's majoring in natural resources.

Um, I know Jordan because my husband met him. 18 years old. And they're both outdoor educators in California. And my husband described Jordan to me as the most mature 18 year olds I've ever met. And he really is. He was like, when I met him, he was still kind of a child who was really mature. Um, but in the time I've known him, he's been a ski patroller, a Stonewall builder, a podcast host, a trail crew manager.

And what's super cool is he's currently collaborating with filmmaker, Dwayne Peterson to produce a documentary following his paddling the entirety of lake Champlain, which is their very long lake between Vermont and New York.

Rachel: Very that's a long lake, long lake.

Steph: It's a long paddle, and he's doing that to raise awareness about its environmental health.

And I'll just close with the fact that he and his super cool partner are the only two people I'll ever go outdoor rock climbing with because they wilderness certified and meticulously safe, and I get hurt very easily, but I'm really stoked for all of us to catch up. So welcome Jordan

INTERVIEW

Steph: Jordan, thank you for being here. It's really good to see you. your introduction was the hardest for me to write because you do so many things, but I think what do you, what are you two right now? You're, you're a student, but you're also making a documentary. Can you tell us about that?

Jordan: Yeah, so I guess most simply I'm an undergrad student at the university of Vermont studying natural resources. Uh, But if I want to make the conversation longer, I'm most excited about the documentary, about lake Champlain that I'm working on.

Steph: I have so many questions about this one. That's a real long lake to kayak

Jordan: Uh, yeah, it's 120 miles. It took two weeks to paddle. Although I was taking my time,

Rachel: I'd expect longer, but I don't kayak

Jordan: I had a south wind at my back and that at least for like the first half, which makes paddling almost too easy. And then, yeah, you're just steering. And then when the wind change to the north, it blowing in my face, I was like, This, this is when it gets hard.

Steph: Oh no, Jordan, I have an advanced degree in geography, but which way does lake Champlain flow?

Jordan: Uh, yup. Well, it's oriented as you know, primarily north to south and it flows. Yeah. So it flows north out of the river, up through Canada and into the St. Lawrence.

Steph: That's what I thought, but just wanted to make all the listeners know.

Rachel: We, but also when you say a wind is a directional wind, isn't it like the opposite or is that

Steph: no, that's right. The southerly wind is coming from the south, so it pushed him north, continuing to Canada, which was helpful . Also my students in my weather, climate society class got that wrong.

Rachel: But it's like ocean currents are the opposite, right? Like you call it northerly. Like they're going to the north anyway. I will Google it.

Steph: I don't know anything about ocean earth, people terrestrial.

Jordan: I mean, me too. I'm not a water person,

Steph: but you kayaked 120 miles

Jordan: actually. I'm pretty scared of the water actually,

Steph: but Jordan, well, why did you kayak those hundred? Where what's your documentary about aside from I'm kayaking?

Jordan: Yeah. So, um, well, there's sort of a backstory, which, you know, include some of me going to school and all, but, um, pretty much I, I came back to Vermont and started taking this class where we were talking a lot about like Champlain and. I realized that even though I grew up just five miles from the lake, uh, I really didn't know anything about it.

And as I learned more about it, I realized that a as someone who likes to travel around usually by foot, but in a kayak sure. Uh, Go out on the lake and explore, it sounded too much fun, different perspective. Yeah. And, and B I also just felt like in order to understand some of the issues that I was learning about, for me, I'm not going to learn about them best in a classroom.

Like I had to just go out. And I could only watch so many videos or hear so many presentations or look at so many charts, you know, I was just like, okay, but I just want to go out and talk to people. And so the whole goal of the project was I'm going to paddle the length of the lake, and I'm going to talk to a bunch of people along the way to learn about their perspectives of what they think the biggest challenges facing lake Champlain are.

Um, because everyone's was different.

Steph: You talked to some pretty cool people.

Jordan: Yeah. So early on in the project, like, you know, once we got funded and it was like, okay, this is happening

Steph: Wait, can I, who gave you money for this? How does, how does one get money to be like, I'm going to paddle like, learn about it. Cause fuck classes.

Jordan: Yeah. So yeah, I pretty much I wanted to like recreate this experience I had in this course, but in movie form, because for me, I think like communicating science is something like, like I don't do science, you guys, as, as I understand it, do science, I, uh, I don't, but I think that like communicating, uh, conservation and environmental issues and climate change issues is super important.

And I don't know. I guess I like to talk. And so I'm like, okay, let's make this movie that like tells this compelling story of adventure and sort of like sneakily convinces people to become aware of the environmental issues through it and sneaky message. So I was like, okay, I have this idea. And I remember texting.

You know my path of like taking this class at UVM and learning about these issues, coincided with my friend, Dwayne Peterson, who had just moved back to Vermont and, uh, Due to COVID and left California, where he was starting his filmmaking career and ended up here in Vermont and didn't really have much work yet.

And so I said, Hey, Dwayne, uh, I, I still have the texts because iPhones, I saved my texting. It's like, Hey, do you want to make a movie where we paddle the length of the lake and talk to people along the way about, you know, the issues facing it. And, uh, that quickly morphed into. Uh, sure. But if I sit in the canoe with you and, you know, film the back of your head, that's not going to be a good movie.

So how about you paddle it and, uh, and I'll get a motorboat and follow you along the way, um, living the life. So the second question after that was, he's like, sure, I'll help you. But, um, you know, I'm a professional now, so we're going to have to figure it out. And, uh, and so after looking through a few different sources, private founded, like, I don't know how to find money for stuff.

I've never written a grant. I've never done any of that. Um, yeah, it's super important one. And, and honestly, like it can, I mean, it's fun asking for money on one hand, it's also can be very exhausting, but, um, but after, I mean, we wrote one grant and didn't get it because we didn't have. We weren't a non-profit I just said, they're like, who are you?

You know? And I'm like, oh, I'm a student. I'm like, okay, well we need like a nonprofit or something. And so the second one we applied for through the lake Champlain basin program, which essentially distributes like EPA funding, um, you know, for the clean water act and stuff, regional. Uh, gave us money for an outreach and education grant.

And so that was our first main funding. And then we picked up a couple of smaller grants, uh, from UVM and from a private foundation along the way.

Rachel: So what are the main issues that are facing Lake Champlain?

Jordan: Yeah. So the biggest one is cyanobacteria. Um, also dubbed blue-green algae. Um, but as you know, maybe some of you science folk could understand better than me. but essentially. Um, high levels of phosphorous coming into the lake, create an imbalance in the chemistry of the water and create these nasty at its worst blue and green, like spilled, paint, and pea soup water across the lake. And it makes it. Toxic, uh, often for animals for humans, uh, you know, taints, water supplies for drinking makes it incredibly hard to have healthy ecosystems and it's just all around disgusting.

Steph: And then is climate change making those worse or yes or no? Or are these just all mostly just anthropogenic surface? Yeah.

Jordan: Yeah. So pretty much the ingredients as I've come to understand it for cyano bacteria blooms. Uh, you need the phosphorus and phosphorus occurs naturally, right? And it comes naturally to nutrient. We need humans needed to survive. Ecosystem needs it. The problem is, is that when it's, we're putting it into our stormwater in cities, in high amounts, So developed areas, we're putting it into the water too much, uh, when we're putting in, on our fields, um, with, you know, fertilizers and too high levels.

Um, and, and it's getting into the lake and we actually have this legacy phosphorus. It's like at the bottom of lake it's in the sediments from when we were doing a really bad job of loading the lake with phosphorous in the seventies. And so you have this phosphorus in the sediments and when you get. Hi, water temperatures.

So here comes your climate change and big storm events. The hot water kind of preps the water, and then the storm water comes in and disturbs it all up.

Steph: And Vermont's also seeing a lot more increased, extreme precipitation events too, like that whole basin. So not only is it temperature, but there's a lot more. I would say storm events

Jordan: And just higher intensity. And so, you know, the first, uh, 13 days of my paddling trip were, were beautiful and clean water, and we're talking about all these issues and like sort of a hypothetical. But the whole time, you know, it was in like the highest August or the hottest August on record.

And so I was out there in the middle of the lake, like sweating, like crazy. I mean, even though you're on a lake, you feel like you're in the middle of a desert cause there's no shade. Yeah. And then sure enough, the last couple of days we had these, uh, you know, moderate sized storms. Uh, but that was enough.

And the final day in the Cisco bay was. I mean, it's hard to put into words, not even the images we captured. I mean,

Steph: there are some like hauntingly beautiful. I want to say, did he use a drone, like drone shot? Have you on the lake in the middle of this like giant bloom we'll link to the Instagram for film.

Rachel: I want to see the Instagram. Yeah. The movie is not out

Jordan: No, the movie is in the works. It's a kind of come out in spring of 2022.

Steph: You talk to like you talk to indigenous people on lake Champlain, and I know it's named by an it's not called that . And then you talked to like bill McKibben, didn't you like, don't you talk to like really? So it's like, it's a really cool project.

Jordan: Yeah. It was all about trying to get like diverse perspectives and hopefully every meaning of the word. Um, whether like. At what their interaction is with the water. Are they recreated or are they local? Do they rely on the water for drinking or do they use it for like farming, but, um, also getting, you know, regional perspectives of both New York and Canada and Vermont.

Um, we talked to the, uh, the leader of, uh, chief Don Stevens of the Cusak Abenaki nation, which was really cool experience. And. Environmentalist's like Bill McKibben, him and I went on a hike man's field, which is quite a trip. I like, yeah, very humble that, like I learned a lot from others people.

Rachel: In my research past climate change sometimes millions of years ago. And I studied lake systems millions of years ago and, and how, um, hominins our early human ancestors lived in lake basins and, and where they disperse to and stuff, but I'm thinking of it on larger scales. But it's really interesting to think about like all the ways that humans us today, but also even earlier depended on depend on lakes.

Steph: Yeah. Well, it's also crazy because right. There's a lot more rules in place with things like the clean water act where it's like, you can't loan as much phosphorus. Right. And it like, Champlain is interesting. Cause it's a, it's a three it's New York Vermont Canada.

So there's different laws, right. About point sources and stuff like that. But I think one thing that you got during that, I had no idea. It was like in the seventies, we were just loading phosphorus on everything to make stuff grow all the time. Let's just throw it on there, throw it on there, throw it on there.

And I have never, I think I did a little bit when Rach and I were in grad school, I went on onto Narragansett bay, which is an estuary in Rhode Island and super polluted. A bunch of fish kills happened all the time. They started and it's mostly industrial and they started really, um, regulating how much industrial waste went in there.

Once they did that, the, the estuary, the bay got healthier and there is no legacy. I'd never even thought about the fact that there would be this like legacy effect in the sediment that storms plus climate change, like what a crazy mix of a problem that you really can't. That's a lot harder to solve, I think.

Right. Because it's it's you could say everyone's stopped throwing phosphorus in the lake, but you're still gonna have this adverse effect because of. 40 50 years ago, which is crazy to me.

Rachel: So going way back? What got you interested initially in, in work combating the climate crisis and in your case, um, you know, making this film.

It sounds like you're from Vermont. I feel like environmentalist's come from.

Jordan: we just, we just go straight out of the fields here.

Rachel: Um, okay, next question.

Jordan: Your question makes me think of two things. Like one, I don't know, like so many of folks. And that related, um, is that once I started going outside to play, like there was no turning back.

Um, you know, for me the word, like, to be honest with you, like climate change, isn't the word that like gets me going. Like, it's not sort of like the concept that I frame my work around necessarily. And I, you know, I don't necessarily know why, but for me, it's. It's more about conservation and outdoor recreation and playing outside, whether it was growing up skiing as a kid too.

Like the first time I went out west and saw big mountains and went to the desert, um, like has just given me so much, like it's made me feel so alive and being outside and, and more importantly, like being outside with friends and new friends and old friends has just like, I mean, that's me, that's everything for me.

And so. I like to think that like other people either have that or could have that and like that, like, I, you know, I don't know if it's, uh, A hundred percent truth for everybody, but like, I'm going to follow that as long as I can that getting people outside, building community outside has been so important for me.

So I'm going to keep trying to make it happen for other people

Steph: Your, your whole body changes when you go from inside of a house to outside of that, I like literally feel like your gaitchanges, but Jordan.

Okay. What was your first job? Because Chris, who is my husband and who knows it knows you. And now we know each other, uh, did outdoor education with you in big bear in California. And I was like, Chris, he was 18. Yeah, and I think you're supposed to have a college degree to work there. And I was like, Jordan definitely didn't have a college, but was that your first job. And also, how did you scam these people into giving you a job?

Rachel: Also big bear is a great name for a place

Jordan: Probably a big reason why I ended up there. Was that your first job? Oh no. My first job was at McDonald's. I worked there for a year.

Steph: Are there even McDonald's in the state of Vermont I feel like they've legislated.

Jordan: So our claim like the classic trivia, uh, question is what's the only state Capitol without a McDonald's.

Rachel: I have McDonald's trivia. That's what, that's what we're doing, right.

well, okay. This is really old trivia. I think it's from like when I was growing up, but I heard that the average American lives four minutes away from a McDonald's.

Steph: Not in Vermont, not in Vermont

Jordan: Didn't grow up in what most people think of as Vermont. Admittedly, I grew up in the place called chiton county. Which growing up, you know, I didn't hear this until high school, but I realized it like framed my entire life up to that point, which was, uh, you know, one of my teachers asked me, he's like, you know what? The, uh, you know what they say? The nice thing about living in Chitman county is, oh my God. I said, what?

He's like, it's close to Vermont.

Steph: I don't understand any of this.

Rachel and I are not from Vermont, so we don't understand what is happening.

Jordan: It's like the closest you can get to a suburb, uh, in Vermont. So it's more developed. There's a lot of like housing development.

Steph: Vermont listeners, what a good joke am I right, Jordan, you grew up in the one suburb of Vermont is what Rachel and I just learned. And you worked at McDonald's in this one suburban, per month in. But that how'd you get to Cal.

Jordan: Well, so then my second job was I dressed up as a mouse at a ski resort. Um, this, the only job I could get at a ski resort when I was whatever, uh, 16 maybe, uh,

Rachel: what was the role of this mouse?

Jordan: Well, uh, to entertain.

To entertain the children at the resort is the mouse. His name is mogul mouse after like the ski, moguls, snow bumps on the trail. And, uh, you know, eventually kind of made the roll my own and would wear the mouse costume skiing around the hill. Um, was, did

Rachel: the mouse have friends? Were there other animals?

Jordan: Yeah, there was Billy Bob bear.

Rachel: Oh, that big and big bear California. That makes sense.

Steph: No, this is in Vermont. Right.

Rachel: No, but that's it planted.

Jordan: So after dressing up as a mouse-over is when I got my first, uh, still not real job, but jobs.

Rachel: I have questions that have been left on answered about this mouse.

Why did he have like, uh, what did he enter T he was just like, Hey, kids, watch a mouse, go down a mountain.

Jordan: Not even, I wasn't even supposed to go skiing. I was just supposed to like dress up a walk around the resort and like make people smile, but Disneyland exactly like Disneyland. It was at a little resort up in Northern Vermont.

Um, but I got bored of that real quick. And so I started putting skis on and just like going rogue and skiing around the mountain. And the kids really love that.

The hardest part was the chair left because the mouse is a really big head. And as like mocha mouse, you have to put, I don't know if you know anything about ski resorts, but you have to put the safety bar down on the chairlift. Cause the kids will say mocha mouse, you know, you're not a country safety bar down, but the thing was the head wouldn't really fit.

And so the hardest part was I almost got stuck on the lift because I couldn't get the bar right.

Rachel: Okay. So what were you saying

Jordan: well, then I then after that, uh, I got a job at a ropes course, and that was like my first job working with people like in the outdoors and like getting.

Everyone from kids to like corporate groups to

Rachel: trying to get them across that rope ladder,

Steph: did an adult 42 year old man have a panic attack on the ropes.

Jordan: Oh, several times. Yeah. Well, we'd have these radios and you would call for ground support. And there was like this cargo net, like how that was like the escape route.

And someone would come up with a cargo net and like take people down. It happened like on a regular basis.

Rachel: Wait, I never, I'm so sorry. Like your documentary sounds so interesting, but I never want this train of jobs to end.

Jordan: It was fun, honestly. If I had like a few other jobs, a nice code that were a lot more boring, like dishwashing or whatever, but like, that was, I mean, that's what, like jump-started my career doors.

Cause it was so much fun to be outside and like be using my body and like moving around and teaching people and challenging myself and others and just like, um, yeah, I was all about it. I was having like

Rachel: free zip lines

Jordan: oh on the daily. .

Steph: Um, so when you, did you, is that how you were able to get a job doing outdoor ed in California? Like that experience? Like how did you go from Vermont?

It's a jump.

Jordan: Yeah. So the deal was is that I just graduated high school.

Steph: Yeah. Can I, and you were, your parents were like, you don't need to go to college, which I think is not a thing that many kids, 18 year olds here today. And I think more people should hear.

Jordan: Yeah. So my parents are both educators. My dad teaches special ed.

My mom was a kindergarten teacher. And I think because of that, they've had incredible insight into education that a lot of folks don't have. And so. They always knew that like the most important thing was like that you were, I mean, they wouldn't say this, but that you were stoked on what you were doing and now that you were like self motivated and happy.

And so, you know, even though. Yeah. Most of my friends, I'd say 90% of my friends and peers in high school were going to college. Um, I mean, that was the last thing I wanted to do. I barely made it through high school. And so there was not really much push for that. I did go dabbling community college after graduation.

Um, and that's when I was working at the ropes car. So I was also doing some ski instructing part-time during that time.

Rachel: What kind of classes did you take in community college?

Jordan: I took, I was in the business, so I was trying to take small business classes.

I don't know, maybe foreshadowing to trying to like get grants for a documentary, but like understanding, understanding money is helpful. I don't know. So I was interested in that at the time and, uh, didn't, didn't really stick with it and was just restless. I was like, not, not doing great.

And, uh, I had a buddy out in Montana and. It was maybe late winter, early spring. And I was like, I've never been out west. Like I want to go to Montana, you know, we're going to go ski in Montana. And so I, like my buddy said, yeah, come on out. And I told my folks and I told the, well, I told like my job at the time.

And they said, okay, well, if you leave your job's not going to be here for you when you get back.

I said, okay, I'm down. It's still worth it. I'm going to go. And then I told my folks and my dad is like, uh, well, your is going to break down. It's not gonna make it classic dad.

And I said, no, I'm going to figure it out. And so my plan was is that I was going to drive out west and I had like four months until I did have a summer job lined up. And I was like, I have four months. I'm going to try to find a job like on the drive out there. And I don't know what it's going to be. I found this website called cool works.com and, uh, S started driving.

And by the time I got to like Nebraska, uh, I had got this job at high trails, outdoor science school be a, an outdoor educator.

Steph: Whoa. . Was there a requirement

Jordan: yes. So there was this director. High-trust outdoor sites. Cool. Big bear, California, Southern California. And, uh, the job application did require a college degree, but I don't know why I thought that they, I mean, maybe it's like an ego thing. I don't know, but I'm like, ah, it doesn't apply to me or whatever. We'll try anyways. And it turned out that, um, you know, it was the way they did programs where there is, they divide up, um, you know, cabins into two groups.

Uh, into male cabins, female cabins, and they really needed instructors in the male cabins. And so since I was an identifying male, they were like, we don't care. We just need some money for the next two months.

literally, I was in like Nebraska and I had this interview and you know, the type of interview where you make it through the questions halfway. And you're like, I don't actually remember what you asked me. Like, it was so bad, but like the next day I was in, you know, the next state west or whatever, and they sent me an email and they're like, congratulations, we'd love to have you and a.

And I was like, surely not. I was ecstatic. I actually, I was in a McDonald's because it was before I had a smartphone. And so I checked my email and it's like welcome to high trails. And I, I was, yeah, it was like one of the best moments.

Rachel: So this was, this was pre summer job or this was to replace that summer?

Jordan: No. Well, they only need, they run in the school year. So I had a summer job starting in June. This was March and they needed someone literally for like March, April, may

Steph: I think one thing that maybe resonated with you as I understand it, and this is all stuff from my husband. So half of it could be lies he said, but all fourth graders in the state of California, I have to like go be a week in the outdoors, which is a really cool thing that California does.

Like, that is awesome. And the other thing is everyone that I've met through him that worked at that program has been really amazing. And that's. Haley true. Who is your partner currently? Who is the most wonderful person in the world? So all true.

Jordan: Yes, she's great. Everybody's great. I mean, Chris, you know, your husband, he's a pretty good guy.

 Everything for me is like the outdoors. You know, like I, like I said, I was not a good place. I was like going from McDonald's to dress up as a mouse and then found this job. Teaching kids like to go to this place without a college degree and be working with college educated folks.

And they have the responsibility to let go lead kids miles into the woods and teach them stuff that I myself did not actually know, but had to learn was like, it was awesome. You know, I never really like had that responsibility to that point and like, meanwhile, there's. Like this place, this job, hi trail is just filtered out all the cool people in the world for you.

And so like, yeah, I met my partner of now six years there. I've met like so many of my best friends to this day at that place. Um, and so like, yeah, that was like, that was, and still is to this day, like the best move that I ever made, the best job ever. Thanks.

Rachel: Cool jobs.com.

Jordan: Is that what a cool works cool works.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Highly recommended.

Steph: The other thing that we've heard from some people in Jordan that I want to keep reiterating is like, apply for things that you're not qualified for because you don't actually know and something could turn it. Cause you are not the first person who was like, I don't have the qualifications, but it was interesting.

So I threw my hat in the ring. Change the path of my life and that's insane,

Jordan: Yeah. I think people like often think the decision point is like when to apply and it's not like, as like, honestly, this is a lesson I learned. Dressing up as a mouse is like, every time I embarrassed about something, like if I have to apply for a job I'm not qualified for, I think it holds people back because it's sort of embarrassing.

You're like really taking a big step you're vulnerable. And so when I do those things, I like put my imaginary mouse hat on and then no one knows who I am. And that's, that's the reality with applying for a job. It's like, nobody knows who you are. If you don't get the job.

And so don't make the decision of like, you know, applications can be a lengthy process, but like at least that first step is, you know, at least in a lot of fields, like not that bad. And so like take that first step and see where it goes. It's like, you can, you could go through the whole process and get the job and then be like exit.

You know, like, like don't make the decision until you, like, you don't

Rachel: want to make their decision for them.

Jordan: So like just try it out. And I don't know, it, it worked for me for me that one time, at least I'm

going to keep trying. I think it's more, I think, but I think it works for other people.

Steph: So Jordan then in the time, At the time I've known you, which was a few years after that.

Actually, not that many, I don't think, but you were your ski patroller. I obviously don't ski. I know I learned to ski at 22 when I was in New Zealand and I never got past pizza and French fries and hated it. I love cross-cutting but downhill, but you are a fantastic skier. So you and.

Ski patrol, but in the time I've known you, you were a trail builder. You led the trail building crew at Dartmouth. You like learn to build a rock walls. You worked on a farm for awhile. I think you lived in a silo, one like a farm silo, one of the summer.

Rachel: Knew you, it sounds dangerous.

Steph: I feel like you had a cat, but you didn't have running water.

I don't know if that's true or not.

Jordan: Yeah, that's accurate,

Steph: but I guess the dream from all of those, mainly because I don't want to keep you on that. And I know we could talk all night. How did you go? Are there, are any of those jobs, your did, what lessons did you learn there? And then like what helped your decision to be like, okay, I know what I want to do.

I'm going to go to college now. Like how did you get from your outdoor education to ski patrol back to the east coast where I'm metyouto, I'm going to go to UVM.

Jordan: Yeah, totally. So after high trials that was like definitely hooked on outdoor seasonal work. Um, I was like, this is what I want to do.

I can try something new. You know, if it's a school program it's like every nine months and then you get a summer job, you know, or, you know, trail workers in the summers. There's like outdoor ed during the school year or, or yeah, there, you could farm one, you know, in the spring for harvest and stuff. And so I, for me, like, I've always been a person of variety.

And so I was like, I just want to try a bunch of stuff because. I know I want to be outside, but I still don't really know how and I, the mantra that I had that whole time, I don't know where I picked it up. I learned it somewhere, but it was this idea of like learning Wildlight earn. And so I was convinced that like, it was worth my time to try all these different jobs because I was getting paid.

Like I didn't, you know, my grandmother sent me like, $2,000 one time. So I could buy a new car because my car was about to blow up. And like, beyond that, I was able to like largely support myself, um, throughout the, oh yeah. Thanks. Gigi. Love you. But beyond that, honestly, like I was supporting myself and that, like, it was a big point of pride for me.

Cause a lot of my friends, like, even though they were going to school, like I knew that they were just also complaining about going into debt. And so for me it was like, I'm not making a lot of money, but a lot of these outdoor seasonal jobs were like providing housing, even if it was a, a silo in the woods.

Um, so yeah. Yeah. Hey bonus. So like, I, yeah, I was just trying to figure out what I was into. And so, you know, when Haley was like, and she was sort of largely on the same path, but she went to school and decided that she didn't want to be in politics, which he'd studied. And so together, we were like, you know, Hey, let's try this out.

And she said, Hey, I've always wanted to be a ski patroller. And it actually, you know, for us at the time, like it paid pretty well. And we got a job at the same place and it was like, okay, great. Let's go to Utah. Did that for a couple of years and acquired a ton of skills. We're supporting ourselves and saving up a little bit about money the whole time.

And, um, and then that brought me to like taking trail building seriously and, you know, getting really into like this idea of building things. Um, and after doing that for a few years, I finally like sort of maybe realize something that other people could have seen. Before me, but I was like, oh, I'm like really into this stuff, conservation.

And after recreation, I was like, I've gotten to the point where it's worth it for me to invest in an education. You knew what you wanted to do.

Steph: Jordan, what's so unique about your story like the way. The us like our current society works and the pressures that we put on 18 year olds are like, no, no, no, you go to college now and like figure it out.

And then when you're, I see my seniors like this all the time, like figure life out at 22, and it's a big deal for them to see people who graduate and don't have their life figured out. Never. See somebody who like acknowledged no college was not right for me. Cause I don't think it's right for a lot of 18 year olds, but there's this huge societal pressure to be like, go figure it out.

And you don't know what's out there. You don't know what you're good at. You don't know what you're bad at. I hope these four years work and could buy like $150,000. So I think it's a really, I love that about your journey in that. You're like, I'm just gonna figure out what I like. And once I do great. And you figured out how to make that work for you, which is not an easy thing to do.

Jordan: Yeah, I can't speak to like the family and, and like, parents'll pressures. Like if you have that, you know, if your students have that or anyone has that, like, I don't, that's hard and I'm not like, I, I didn't. And I feel so lucky for that. And I feel like increasingly lucky it's like, I have these conversations with my peers.

Now, these kids that are in college, I'm in class with that have that. And I'm like, I mean, if you don't want to be here, like, I don't know if it's honestly like it it's blunt and whatever, but it's what I believe. Like if, if you're paying money every year to figure out what you're into, I think you're wasting your money.

It's the opposite of earning. Like you wouldn't make a big investment in anything else, like a house without seeing it. So like before you invest in like, you know, a hundred thousand, 200,000 plus education, like go and, and not just visit the school, but like it take a year to explore that lifestyle and see if it's

Steph: oh, boy, we came down one weekend, 14 houses and picked one. Cause we're idiots. The house is nice. This is not the area we would ideally like, you know, it's, it's sort of bad, like live in the space. Yeah. Let yourself grow.

Jordan: But also houses like lower. Like you can resell a house, you can't really sell your college education.

 So I just think like, there are so many. I like, if you have the option to go to school, chances are you have like other options, you know, you have the flexibility, like for some folks, it's like, if you have the opportunity to go to school, like, and maybe there's some money for you to go like, then, then they're going to take it because it makes sense.

We have to have scholarships that won't be available later on, then they should take it because it's worth it. But like, if you've got options and maybe financial flexibility or just like life flexibility, I don't know. I it's like doesn't make sense to me to spend money before you actually know, um, you know, figure it out and make some money.

Steph: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right. There are, there are a lot of reasons. Some people, a lot of my students are like, I came to the school because they gave me money and you're like, obviously, absolutely take the place that pays you. But the parent, your parents being so supportive, I don't think I remember my high school being like a hundred percent college acceptance rate.

Oh yeah. Right. Which is, which is like a different. There's no pressure at all. So I think having the parents that you had,

Rachel: yeah. It's not even just like direct pressure. Like, no, you go to college. It's like, that is what is done in a lot of situations like that is what's done. You don't like even thinking.

Jordan: I totally understand that. Um, cause I felt it for sure. Like I, when I, I spent the first six months after I school, like living in an apartment by myself in Burlington, this dingy studio apartment, all my friends were like literally across the street at UVM. Once I realized that like they weren't going to come over to my apartment, hanging out with me that they were going to hang out with their new college friends is when it like sunk in that I was like, oh, this like this kind of stinks. Um Hmm. But like once I found like my thing, which is being in the outdoors, like I took a lot of pride in that of being like, you know, somebody out west and like exploring and trying new things. And like, honestly, once that stop making sense and I was like no longer proud to be the one that didn't go to college.

Like when I was. Honestly, it was when I was teaching the trail building to Dartmouth students and realize that, you know, no offense, but I was like, well, shoot, if you guys can do this, I sure as heck can go to college.

So, uh, you know, not to Dartmouth because yeah, there you go. I mean, honestly, I had, like, I was teaching the trail stuff in the summer, which I really enjoyed.

I love yeah. Teaching people skills in the outdoors and building teams and like getting. You know, erosion control and conservation work done. Um, but then in the winter, I actually worked at the coffee shop in the Dartmouth school library for a couple of months. And that place, well, one S like crazy, very busy, but it's like the only time I've had a job like that.

And it took me like, yeah, I dunno, five weeks of like handing people, their coffee orders that. Obviously like studying hard and like bettering themselves and like all this stuff. And I just realized it, like I wanted to be on the other side of the counter at that point. And that was like it for me. And I was like, okay, uh, it's time.

I'm going to go to college.

Steph: That's great. Also, I miss that king Arthur, a little flower stand. I, I talked to an old friend about the bacon cheddar scones there all the time. Neither of us are in New Hampshire. The one thing I remember most about standing in that extremely long line in that library is it was like the most college order I'd ever heard where every student would be like, can I get a hot chocolate with a shot of espresso?

And I'm like, oh my God, you're 18. .

Jordan: Chaffey it's half coffee, half chocolate milk.

Steph: Right. It just sounded like a child trying to be an adult. I mean, I was a postdoc, right. So I was like all these children. Yeah, exactly. Can I, can we finish with two last questions? What do you hope to be when you grow up with your natural resources degree?

Jordan: Well, I mean, that's a great question. Something that I've gotten really interested in since being at school is just, there's something I learned on my trip is that there's like three ways of sort of combating this crisis, this, this negative relationship that humans have sort of different.

Or many humans have developed to the natural world. You know, you can combat it with policy changes. Um, uh, you can combat it with technological solutions, but there's like this third thing that, that has been described to me during this trip on lake Champlain, is this cultural change, this just social change of like how we see the natural world and how we see human.

As a part of it and not like having dominion over it. And so what I hope to do after school is, you know, might not be a specific title or job in mind, but it's like to continue to, to work on building. How helping people have a healthier relationship with the natural resources around them. And, and I think that the key to that is like, you got to get out there, you got to spend time in the natural world.

And the more that you do in a way that you, that you learn about it and respect it is it's gotta be good. I really don't see how it could be bad. And so I want to continue to do that, um, and, and build community between people in the outdoors and then help them build community with, with, uh, the natural world around.

Rachel: Well, when you get a business card, you will have to let us know what it was. Your

Steph: LinkedIn, what is your LinkedIn thing? Say what's your LinkedIn like title?

Jordan: I mean, I don't really tell people that hit me up on LinkedIn either. Sometimes they find me and it's great. Um, but yeah, it's it says a student of life and the university of Vermont builder of trails and community and producer of place-based media and belly laughs .

Steph: We have one last question that we ask all of our guests.

Rachel: Do you have a pet? And I think Steph already knows the answer to this. And so I'm going to ask it, do you have a pet and. What is their social media presence like? Hmm. Um,

Jordan: I have a dog.

Steph: What's the bucket. Yeah.

Rachel: Bucket for those who missed that.

Cause Steph talk,

Steph: sorry. Why is your dog named bucket?

Jordan: My dog is named bucket because it brings joy to all those who utter his name.

Yeah. I mean, that's pretty much it, I don't, there's not much. Uh, well actually the real thing is, is that my partner said that, you know, if she ever had children, she would name them biscuit, brisket, and basket, and the dog's name would be bucket.

Rachel: How does bucket feel about bucket hats coming back into style?

Jordan: Yeah, I mean, he's down. He won't, he won't wear one.

Rachel: Would not wear a bucket hat that says bucket on it then.

Jordan: You want to send him one, we can try

Steph: yeah. I'm sure they make bucket hats for dogs that you can embroider.

Just throwing that out there.

Rachel: Steph's like, I know what I'm doing this weekend. Merry Christmas bucket.

Jordan: He just wants to see you.

Steph: Wait, does bucket have his own social media or is he on yours?

Jordan: Absolutely not. I mean, I barely have. Yeah, I have one for the film oh, so at lake Champlain film, or you can go to www dot lake Champlain, film.com and we've got a lot of cool footage and sneak peeks of the film that, uh, yeah, we're still working on we're in the editing booth now, pretty much all the cinematography is done and we're just focused on. Pulling all the pieces together and do a about a 30 minute story that, uh, hopefully will inspire people to spend more time in the lake and, and, you know, challenge them to see some of its issues from a different person's perspective, and hopefully play a part in stewardship. .